[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
[See beta release notes regarding kerning in this message:
http://groups.msn.com/SBLFonts/sblgreek.msnw?action=get_message&mview;=0&ID;_Message=467 ]

After receiving a bug report from one of the Font Foundation members about colliding glyphs in MS Word 2003, I've done some tests and it looks like Word is ignoring many of the pairs in the font kern table. Not only does Word not support the advanced OpenType GPOS kerning, and not only is kerning off by default and needs to be turned on by the user, but it seems Word is only applying kerning to characters that are included in the 8-bit (monotonic) Greek codepage. So, for example, Τα (Tau alpha) and Τά (Tau alphatonos) are correctly kerned in Word, but Τά (Tau alphaoxia) is not, even though alphatonos and alphaoxia are visually identical glyphs. This kerning limitation means Word is not applying kerning to any pairs that involve polytonic diacritics, which is a real problem for some combinations, e.g. ἵλ, in which letters will collide with diacritic marks if the spacing is not increased using the kern values.

I would be interested to know if this is also a problem in Word 2007, if anyone is testing in that version of the program. I suspect it will be, because the Word programmers are usually concerned with avoiding text reflow in existing documents, so are resistant to changing anything that affects spacing. Unfortunately they are more concerned about this, and about efficiency in line layout processing, than they are with what the results look like!


         

[James18343]

Posted by: James18343
         
I wonder if this is relevant: I own a copy of Fine Print pdfFactory,
which I routinely use to create PDFs from any Windows application. I
just print but select pdfFactory instead of a real printer. It always
works well. But when I tried to make a PDF from a MS Word 2003 file
consisting almost entirely of Greek set in SBL Greek, I got strange
results. Trying to print more than a page or two didn't work at all.
Printing only a page or two worked, though slowly, but the spacing in
the resulting PDF was severely erratic.

James Ernest

         

[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
James, your PDF issue is probably unrelated to the kerning limitation in Word, but I'd be happy to try to troubleshoot it with you via email (although I need to work on a new build of the Greek font this evening: a few combining mark codepoints were dropped in the source and need to be fixed).
         

[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Further to the kerning problems in Word:

I just downloaded and installed the free, open source OpenOffice Writer word processor, to see whether it performed any better. It does, and then some: it applies the OpenType GPOS kerning, which means the kerning is better than it would be in Word even if the latter was supporting all the pairs in the kern table. I'm guessing it is applying the OT kerning via the open source ICU layout engine.

I don't know how the OpenOffice product performs in other respects, but in this regard at least I have no hesitation in recommending it as an alternative to Word.

OpenOffice Writer is downloadable from

http://www.openoffice.org/

The download is large and includes the additional spreadsheet, database etc. programs, but you can select which components to install. It is available for multiple platforms, including Windows and Linux, with a beta version for Mac OSX.
         

[JudyRedman]

Posted by: JudyRedman
         

I don't use OpenOfficeWriter much - it doesn't seem to function
well (?at all) with Endnote, although I haven't tried very hard, or since I
installed ver X.  However, it does have an added very nice feature which is
that you can export files as pdf very quickly and easily.

 

Judy

From: John Hudson [mailto:tiro@tiro.com]
 
Sent: Thursday, 15 February 2007 1:46 PM
To: SBL
  Fonts
Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning
  issue

	New Message on SBL Fonts

MS Word
    (2003) polytonic kerning issue

Reply

Reply to Sender   Recommend Message 4 in                 Discussion

From: John Hudson Further to the kerning problems in                 Word: I just downloaded and installed the free, open                 source OpenOffice Writer word processor, to see whether it                 performed any better. It does, and then some: it applies the                 OpenType GPOS kerning, which means the kerning is better than it                 would be in Word even if the latter was supporting all the pairs                 in the kern table. I'm guessing it is applying the OT kerning                 via the open source ICU layout engine. I don't know how                 the OpenOffice product performs in other respects, but in this                 regard at least I have no hesitation in recommending it as an                 alternative to Word. OpenOffice Writer is downloadable                 from http://www.openoffice.org/ The download is                 large and includes the additional spreadsheet, database etc.                 programs, but you can select which components to install. It is                 available for multiple platforms, including Windows and Linux,                 with a beta version for Mac       OSX.

View other groups in this
    category.

         

[Midres1]

Posted by: Midres1
         

Having the same concern as Judy,
that is, to be able to use Endnote together with my word processor I wrote
to Endnote and got the following reply:

 

If, by compatible you mean a CWYW toolbar similar to what we have
for
Microsoft Word - no. This is a very common request but something that
is
very difficult for us to undertake. The rules that govern the
OpenOffice
open-source code project make it very difficult for a for-profit
company
like ours to develop anything that interacts with it without
legally
being required to open up our propriety code to others - this
is
something that we are not able to do.

...

 

Dieter

         

[twuandy]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Hi, Judy,
Does it have Hebrew?  Can you point the Hebrew?  Does it have Coptic?
Andy


>From: "JudyRedman"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "'SBL Fonts'"
>Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:22:03 -0800
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>       MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
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>                Â 
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>
>                   Message 5 in Discussion
>
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>
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>               From:
>               JudyRedman
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>
>I don't use OpenOfficeWriter much - it doesn't seem to function
>well (?at all) with Endnote, although I haven't tried very hard, or since I
>installed ver X.  However, it does have an added very nice feature which is
>that you can export files as pdf very quickly and easily.
> 
>Judy
>
>
>
>
>   From: John Hudson [mailto:tiro@tiro.com]
>
>Sent: Thursday, 15 February 2007 1:46 PM
>To: SBL
>   Fonts
>Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning
>   issue
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       New Message on SBL Fonts
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>   MS Word
>     (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>
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>         Reply
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>                
>               Reply to Sender   Recommend
>               Message 4 in
>                 Discussion
>
>
>
>
>
>               From: John Hudson
>
>
>Further to the kerning problems in
>                 Word:
>
>I just downloaded and installed the free, open
>                 source OpenOffice Writer word processor, to see whether it
>                 performed any better. It does, and then some: it applies
>the
>                 OpenType GPOS kerning, which means the kerning is better
>than it
>                 would be in Word even if the latter was supporting all the
>pairs
>                 in the kern table. I'm guessing it is applying the OT
>kerning
>                 via the open source ICU layout engine.
>
>I don't know how
>                 the OpenOffice product performs in other respects, but in
>this
>                 regard at least I have no hesitation in recommending it as
>an
>                 alternative to Word.
>
>OpenOffice Writer is downloadable
>                 from
>
>http://www.openoffice.org/
>
>The download is
>                 large and includes the additional spreadsheet, database
>etc.
>                 programs, but you can select which components to install.
>It is
>                 available for multiple platforms, including Windows and
>Linux,
>                 with a beta version for Mac
>       OSX.
>View other groups in this
>     category.
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[TylerFWilliams]

Posted by: TylerFWilliams
         
I was playing around with the font in MS Word 2003 and there are a few problems as you noted. I do want to say, however, that this is a beautiful font. Very well done.

I assume that it will have the same licensing as the SBL Hebrew? I want to use it for a book I am editing for Brill.
         

[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Yes, the licensing is the same as for the SBL Hebrew. The font is free for you to use, and as Brill is a member of the Font Foundation they can also use it in their books if they so wish.
         

[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Further to the kerning issue, please see this message in the other thread:

http://groups.msn.com/SBLFonts/sblgreek.msnw?action=get_message&mview;=1&ID;_Message=485
         

[James18343]

Posted by: James18343
         
bad link (?)

James

-----Original Message-----
From: John Hudson [mailto:tiro@tiro.com]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 1:16 PM
To: SBL Fonts
Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue

-----------------------------------------------------------

New Message on SBL Fonts

-----------------------------------------------------------
From: John Hudson
Message 10 in Discussion

Further to the kerning issue, please see this message in the other
thread:

http://groups.msn.com/SBLFonts/sblgreek.msnw?action=get_message


         

[twuandy]

Posted by: twuandy
         

Hi, John,
I downloaded Open Office Writer and followed the instructions for selecting
Hebrew input.  Hit CTRL+SHIFT+D.  It kept inputting in English!?
Andy

>From: "John Hudson"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:16:17 -0800
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>
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>
>               From:
>               John Hudson
>
>
>
>
>               Further to the kerning issue, please see this message in the
>other thread:
>
>http://groups.msn.com/SBLFonts/sblgreek.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=485
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[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
James, the link works okay for me. But check the originak version 0.90 announcement thread for the last message I posted there.
         

[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Andy, the Hebrew question is really off-topic for this thread, but...

I did a quick experiment pasting Hebrew text into OpenOffice Writer when I first installed it, just to see if the mark positioning was working (it seems to be), but had not done any other Hebrew testing with it. My head's full of Greek at the moment.

I just did a quick test of Hebrew input, and it seems to work fine and exactly the same as in MS Word: just select the Hebrew keyboard, set the correct font, and start typing.

According to the OpenOffice help files, all that the CTRL+SHIFT+D command does is shift to right-to-left directionality, it doesn't actually activate Hebrew input, which works the same way in OpenOffice as in Word: directly from the installed keyboard driver.


[Please note that the Word kerning issue discussed in this thread is specific to polytonic Greek. Hebrew kerning is implemented by the Hebrew shaping engine in Uniscribe using the OpenType GPOS kerning. There is no legacy format kern table in the Hebrew font.]
         

[JudyRedman]

Posted by: JudyRedman
         
John, James,
 
I think that the link (which is quite long) may have wrapped on James'
screen and may need to be pasted in two parts into the browser, rather than
simply being clickable.  That's certainly how it came out on my screen.
 
Judy
 

--
"Politics is the work we do to keep the world safe for our spirituality" -
Judith Plaskow, Phoenix Rising, 2000

Rev Judy Redman
Uniting Church Chaplain and PhD candidate
University of New England
Armidale 2351
ph:  +61 2 6773 3739
fax: +61 2 6773 3749
web:  http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~jredman2 and
         http://judyredman.wordpress.com/
email:  jredman2@une.edu.au


 


  _____  

From: John Hudson [mailto:tiro@tiro.com]
Sent: Saturday, 17 February 2007 4:59 PM
To: SBL Fonts
Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue


 
s.msn.com>
     New
Message on SBL Fonts    
     


 
ussion&parent=3&item=472> MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue


 
ytonic%20kerning%20issue> Reply
     
 
erning%20issue> Reply to Sender
d&parent=3&item=489> Recommend    Message 13 in Discussion    

From:   John
Hudson    

James, the link works okay for me. But check the originak version 0.90
announcement thread for the last message I posted there.   

View other groups in this   category.




     



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[twuandy]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Dear John,
I know you're very busy.  Please tell me how - in Open Office Writer - to
enter
"This is my text: any 'ohev otah.  That was my text."
any 'ohev otah is Hebrew for "I love you".  It will be in Hebrew letters and
will be read from right to left.  I'm clear as far as the colon.  After that
I have no idea how to enter the Hebrew.
Thanks,
Andy


>From: "John Hudson"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:07:19 -0800
>
>
>
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>
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>     New Message on SBL Fonts
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>       MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>
>
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>       Reply
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>                Â 
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>                   Reply to Sender
>                     Recommend
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>                   Message 14 in Discussion
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>               From:
>               John Hudson
>
>
>
>
>               Andy, the Hebrew question is really off-topic for this
>thread, but...
>
>I did a quick experiment pasting Hebrew text into OpenOffice Writer when I
>first installed it, just to see if the mark positioning was working (it
>seems to be), but had not done any other Hebrew testing with it. My head's
>full of Greek at the moment.
>
>I just did a quick test of Hebrew input, and it seems to work fine and
>exactly the same as in MS Word: just select the Hebrew keyboard, set the
>correct font, and start typing.
>
>According to the OpenOffice help files, all that the CTRL+SHIFT+D command
>does is shift to right-to-left directionality, it doesn't actually activate
>Hebrew input, which works the same way in OpenOffice as in Word: directly
>from the installed keyboard driver.
>
>
>[Please note that the Word kerning issue discussed in this thread is
>specific to polytonic Greek. Hebrew kerning is implemented by the Hebrew
>shaping engine in Uniscribe using the OpenType GPOS kerning. There is no
>legacy format kern table in the Hebrew font.]
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[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Andy, this worked for me.

With the EN keyboard selected, I just started typing

"This is my text:

then I switched the the HE keyboard, and continued typing

אני אוהב אוך

[I was using a font the includes both Latin and Hebrew characters; if the English text is in a font that does not include Hebrew characters, the application switches to a default font (Tahoma on my system)]

then I switched back to the EN keyboard and typed

. That was my text."

That's all there was too it. The over all text directionality of the paragraph was left-to-right, since we were beginning with English text, but I could have set it to be right-to-left using the ctrl+shift+D command or the right-to-left paragraph button in the toolbar.

The Hebrew characters will automatically be right-to-left, even though the surrounding text is left-to-right, because their Unicode character property directionality is RTL.

As far as I can tell, OpenOffice Writer behaves exactly the same as MS Word in this respect.
         

[twuandy]

Posted by: twuandy
         
How do you switch to the HE keyboard?  How do you enter points?
Andy

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[JudyRedman]

Posted by: JudyRedman
         

Andy,

 

Do you have a Hebrew keyboard installed on your computer?  If
you don't, typing more than a few characters of Hebrew will send you
crazy.  You can download a Hebrew keyboard map from the SBL site http://www.sbl-site.org/Resources/Resources_BiblicalFonts.aspx -
click on the relevant link under the heading New SBL Hebrew
Font.

 

Once you have unzipped it and installed you, you need to get your
operating system to recognise that you have it.  Are you using
Windows?  If so, I can give you some help in doing this, but I know nothing
about Macs. 

 

Judy

 

         

[JudyRedman]

Posted by: JudyRedman
         

PS - the download files contain manuals to help with installation
and use.

 

Judy

 

         

[JudyRedman]

Posted by: JudyRedman
         

Sorry, I should read things more carefully.  Andy, the SBL
files only work for Windows 2000 and XP.  If you are using any other
operating system, perhaps others on this list can help you.

 

Judy

 

         

[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Andy, I'll contact you via email, and try to sort this out. I'd rather not fill the new Greek forum with a lot of messages about Hebrew.
         

[EmpiricalHumanist]

Posted by: EmpiricalHumanist
         
On 2/14/07, John Hudson wrote:

> I don't know how the OpenOffice product performs in other respects,
> but in this regard at least I have no hesitation in recommending it as
> an alternative to Word.

OpenOffice is my primary office suite; I use it daily on three
platforms: Linux, Mac and WindowsXP. I also use SBLHebrew heavily in
my daily work, and interact with others who use MS Office exclusively.

My experience is that SBLHebrew in OpenOffice works great on WindowsXP
and Linux platforms, athough Linux has been behind in the rendering of
combining characters. On the Mac, the rendering of Hebrew by NeoOffice
(the Mac port of OpenOffice) is awful. In general, the Mac doesn't
handle combining characters well at all. I use Mellel when I need to
do Hebrew, and is the only practical solution for Hebrew
wordprocessing, in my opinion.

My only real complaint isn't a font issue: it's very difficult to edit
Hebrew combining forms in Word, OpenOffice or Mellel, as has been
noted on this list before.

Kirk

         

[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
I've just installed MS Office 2007, and report that, as I suspected, there is no improvement in kerning support.
         

[twuandy]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Got you, John (and Judy).  Word's Times New Roman font is a catchall font
that has English, Hebrew, Greek, Coptic(?) and who knows what else - but
only bits, nothing complete.  When the rabbi said to Gates, "But what about
cholem without vav?" he said, "Sorry, the spots are all full. Go see John at
Tiro!"  Kerning is something beyond the capabilities of the people in
Seattle.
Andrew


>From: "John Hudson"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:25:09 -0800
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>                   Message 24 in Discussion
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>               From:
>               John Hudson
>
>
>
>
>               I've just installed MS Office 2007, and report that, as I
>suspected, there is no improvement in kerning support.
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[twuandy]

Posted by: twuandy
         
That is, each letter followed by a cholem is a different glyph, and - since
there are 22 Hebrew letters - there are 22 glyphs for consonant+cholem.  The
people in Seattle are using those spots for something else, and kerning is
out of the question.
Andrew


>From: "John Hudson"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:25:09 -0800
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[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Some hopeful news regarding the MS Word polytonic Greek kerning problem. After corresponding with some managers and programmers at Microsoft about this issue, I received confirmation from them today that they have confirmed and identified the problem and are working to figure out when they can fix it and make an update available.
         

[twuandy]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Great, John!  Now what about the Hebrew kerning?  I'm $150 richer every day
I don't have to buy Office 2007.
Andrew

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[John Hudson]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
What about Hebrew kerning? The only thing that doesn't work as I would hope is that kerning for common punctuation characters like comma and period that are used in modern Hebrew is not being applied in Word. But all the other kerning in the SBL Hebrew font is working fine. If it isn't working in another font, that's the font's fault not Word's.

Kerning for Hebrew in Word is handled by the Uniscribe script processor, which applies OpenType GPOS kerning for Hebrew.

The tricky aspect of Hebrew kerning, which I am working on refining in the v2.0 release of the SBL Hebrew font, is contextually adjusting the spacing when adjacent letters have marks below them. For narrow letters, especially, it is necessary to increase the spacing slightly to avoid the marks colliding. This is very fiddly, and I wasn't happy with the rather coarse way this was addressed in the current shipping versions of SBL Hebrew, so I've devised a new approach, which is much more complicated but provides better results. I've tested this approach in Word, other Uniscribe apps, OpenOffice.org, and Adobe InDesign ME; some of our colleagues have tested it in Mellel for me.