positioning problems with InDesign

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: k_e_peter
         

Hello John,

 

I recently tried the SBLHebrew font in InDesign (including the last 1.14 build 100) and found that in some cases (not fully mapped yet) the kerning changes between two letters when adding more diacritics (see attached pdf file).

 

In this case removing 'patah' or 'merkha' fixes the problem.

 

I also have some same problem with 'yod' + 'patah' + 'merkha' however there the gap appeares after the letter.

 

I also have cases of overlappig/missplaced diacritics.

I have a case of 'holam' + 'zaqef qatan' where the tow signs are displayed one over the other (the base letter is 'nun').

And also hade few cases where the different order of the diacritics produce different display results: 'pashta' + 'patah' display well but 'patah' + 'pashta' not (base letters are 'resh', 'het').

 

I think that I can fix it with MS VOLT if I had the OpenType layout tables for this.

Should I have?

 

(If not :-(! Do you plain to fix these problems in the - near - future?)

 

Peter

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Peter, which version of InDesign are you using? There are some known issues with contextual mark positioning in InDesign CS and CS2 ME, which cause the kind of collisions you report. Hopefully this will be resolved in future versions of that program, but you can also expect some improvement when I release SBL Hebrew 2.0, which uses a different method for multiple marks below letters.

Regarding the kerning, I'd need to see the results, but I suspect what you are seeing is the rather crude method by which current versions of the font tries to avoid collision between adjacent marks on narrow letters. I'm not satisfied with this method, and coming up with a  more refined approach is one of the things that is delaying release of version 2.0. I know how to improve this, but it is a very time consuming piece of work: I have a very large document consisting of all the pairs of letters with marks below that occur in the Bible text, and I am going through it identifying those that need a kerning adjustment and classifying them according to how large that adjustment needs to be. Then I'll need to translate this into contextual rules for OpenType kerning. The good news from your perspective is that I've already tested the method in InDesign CS2 ME and confirmed that it will work there.

Regarding mark order, yes you can expect different display results depending on the mark order, and this may also vary according to application. As discussed at some length in the font manual, mark order is very important. The new MS Office 2007 and Vista Hebrew layout engines are performing on-the-fly mark re-ordering, so in those contexts it will be less important for the user to employ consistent mark ordering, but it is still a good idea to follow the order specified in the manual.

If you come across problems with SBL Hebrew in a specific application such as InDesign, it is always a good idea to also test the same piece of text in MS Word 2003 or 2007 or, if these are not available, in Notepad. This will give you a pretty good indication whether the problem is in the font or in the application.
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: k_e_peter
         

I used CS for this project however if you think that CS2 can help I have it too.

As you suggested I took a sentence and put it into notepad. You can see the results in the attached 'notepad.pdf' file. The first line was rendered with usp10.dll from windows 2000 (1.0325.2195.6692) and the second was erndered by MS VOLT version (1.0473.4067.15(nbeal.040302-1649)).

You also can see the InDesign rendered sentence in 'id.pdf'

As I can see the kerning problem exists in both the InDesign and the notpad with the newer usp10. Strangely the notepad with the older usp10 version looks better then the new one!?

 

My question is when. When we can expect the version 2.0?

My other question is if I can help you any way (I'm using InDesign)?

 

Thank you

Peter

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
There are known issues with the Uniscribe USP10.dll and Biblical Hebrew in every version prior to the Office 2003 release. This is one of the reasons why we can't fully support Biblical Hebrew in earlier versions of MS Word and associated apps.

It's past time that the VOLT beta version of USP10.dll should be updated: there have been a lot of improvements and additions since v1.0473.4067.15. Windows XP SP2 currently ships with v1.420.2600.2180. Office 2007 ships with v1.626.5756.0. Windows Vista ships with a version that is functionally identical to the Office 2007 build, but may have a different build number.

I'm not sure whether InDesign CS2 will solve any of the particular problems you are having, at least not with the current version of the font.

I can't tell you exactly when SBL Hebrew 2.0 will ship, but there will definitely be a public beta on this site prior to the general release, and you'll certainly be able to help me by testing it. But SBL have asked me to concentrate on the first versions of the Greek and Latin fonts before finishing the new version of the Hebrew. Unfortunately, at the moment I'm distracted by numerous other projects too, so progress on all fonts is slow.
         

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