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Author Topic: Lower punctum problem for Internet Explorer users  (Read 2608 times)
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« on: 2004-01-28, 14:30:00 »

Posted by: CVKimball
         

Lower Combining Dot Problem with Psalm 27:13.1<br />

Lower Combining Dot (low punctum) problem with Psalm 27:13.1


With Internet Explorer 6.0 I've had a problem with SBL Hebrew 1.07 as shown below:

With usual mark ordering:


lamed + lowpunctum + highpunctum + vav + dagesh  + lamed + tsere + lowpunctum + revia + highpunctum  + aleph + lowpunctum + highpunctum



ל̣ׄוּלֵ̣֗ׄא̣ׄ

With lowpunctum placed "prepositively":


A crude "fix" is to place the low punctum before the consonant.

lowpunctum + lamed + highpunctum  + vav + dagesh + lowpunctum + lamed + tsere + revia + highpunctum  + lowpunctum + aleph + highpunctum



̣לׄוּ̣לֵ̣֗ׄאׄ


Chris Kimball



         

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« Reply #1 on: 2004-01-28, 14:39:00 »

Posted by: CVKimball
         
The attached html file shows the problem.
 
Chris Kimball

         
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« Reply #2 on: 2004-01-28, 19:10:00 »

Posted by: Ken Penner
         

I have already corresponded with John about
some of these characters which I would like to see added to SBL Hebrew. (These
are used by Dead Sea Scrolls scholars to transcribe texts):

 


U+030A Combining Ring Above (positioned just
like U+0307)

U+25CB White Circle

U+005B Left Square
Bracket


U+005D Right Square
Bracket

U+300A Left Double Angle
Bracket


U+300B Right Double Angle
Bracket


U+301A Left White Square
Bracket

U+301B Right White Square Bracket

 


Ken Penner, McMaster/DSS
Dead Sea Scrolls scholars' list
owner, http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot


         
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« Reply #3 on: 2004-01-28, 20:26:00 »

Posted by: John Hudson
         
I'm looking into the low punctum problem, but I'm 99% sure that it is due to a bug in Internet Explorer. The codepoint we are currently using for the low punctum U+0323 is not specifically a Hebrew mark, and some applications have trouble handling it in right-to-left text. Other Microsoft applications used to have this bug, including Office Xp, but it has been fixed in Office 2003.
 
Note, Chris, that your 'crude fix' is only removing the dotted circles (indicating invalid mark sequences): another symptom of the problem -- at least on my system -- is that the font is being switched, resulting in those ugly square dots instead of the SBL Hebrew puncta. This is what I am seeing with your HTML, with the mark incorrectly encoded before the base:
 
 
And this is what I get in Word 2003, with the mark correctly encoded after the base:
 
Important note: the upper puncta are actually positioned outside the vertical metrics of the font, which means they will be clipped and invisible in some applications, but they should print correctly (I made the above screenshot by printing to a PDF). Because the puncta are so seldom used, I did not want to have them dictate the default linespacing for the font. This means, apart from the clipping issue, that passages using the puncta cannot be 'set solid' but must have additional linespacing added in the application.

         
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« Reply #4 on: 2004-01-28, 20:29:00 »

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Ken,
 
Additional characters probably deserve a thread of their own, or even a specific thread regarding the needs of DSS scholars. I have spec'd the additions you've requested and they should be included in the November release and probably in some earlier beta.
 
John

         
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« Reply #5 on: 2004-01-28, 20:30:00 »

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Oops, just noticed that I forgot the third low punctum on the alef in my Word 2003 example. But you get the idea.

         
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« Reply #6 on: 2004-01-28, 22:38:00 »

Posted by: CVKimball
         

Using Altova's XMLSpy application in browser mode yields a circle-free
rendering, however, the lower puncta remain excessively shifted to the
left.  They are square, rather than diamond-like, and aren't as
well-positioned as in John's example.



         
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« Reply #7 on: 2004-01-29, 02:01:00 »

Posted by: John Hudson
         
The square puncta are probably from the Arial typeface, which is being subbed because of the bug. Since there is no dynamic mark positioning available between different fonts, what you are seeing is the blind positioning of the Arial marks.

         
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« Reply #8 on: 2004-01-29, 20:20:00 »

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Chris, I tested your html file in the Mozilla Firebird browser, which renders the correctly encoded string perfectly, but messes up your IE 'fix':
 
 
 
This confirms my suspicion about why that fix works in IE: the browser is treating the low punctum as a LTR character. Mozilla correctly treats it as inheriting RTL directionality from the Hebrew letters, so treats the prepositional punctum as an invalid sequence.
 
I suspect that the IE bug that results in the font swapping may be due to the version of the RichEdit library used by IE, which I think was updated for Office 2003, but I can't confirm this.

         
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« Reply #9 on: 2004-01-29, 23:25:00 »

Posted by: CVKimball
         

Let me disavow any advocacy of the "prepositive" fix for the low punctum
problem.!


Chris Kimball



         
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