Holem Problem

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Matthew
         

I recently installed the SBL Hebrew font and find it very useful.  I am, however, having problem with the holem.  The font treats it as a separate character, in its own letter space, rather than a diacritical mark over a letter (except with waw).  I see from previous discussions that this problem has come up before.  I followed the advice given to a previous message, which said that the holem problem would go away if you use the Narkisim font.  Perhaps I am missing something basic, but I couldn't figure out a way to use the Narkism font to solve the problem.  I'd appreciate any help with this.  Thanks, Matthew

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Sorry your message got lost in moderation limbo for so long. Are you still having this problem? It is most likely due to the software you are using, and not a font issue, but I can help you solve it if I know what system and software you are using (including versions).
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
What are you doing, Matthew?  If you're making a Word document, select
Narkisim and point the text using insert special characters.  Then you can
enter a cholem without accompanying vav and have the two positioned
correctly.  If you're doing something else, I can't help you.  Does anyone
know if the problem with the vav-less cholem will be corrected in Office
2007?  The question is academic, since Times-Roman is not a particularly
agreeable Hebrew font.  John's SBL font is an improvement.  Narkisim is a
rather inelegant (unelegant?) font that suits the need of straightforward
presentation.
Andresw Fincke

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Posted by: Sol_23151
         
John,

I have had the same problem with holem as Matthew. I'm using the font on
two different systems--Windows XP Professional and Personal. I am entering
Hebrew text into both MS Word 2000 and 2003. The problem recurs in both. I
had just simply comformed to the fact that it seemed to be a recurrent
problem, but I'd prefer to fix it. How do I go about doing that?

Many thanks for your help.

Gilbert



>>> "John Hudson" 12/24/06 9:00 PM >>>
-----------------------------------------------------------

New Message on SBL Fonts

-----------------------------------------------------------
From: John Hudson
Message 2 in Discussion

Sorry your message got lost in moderation limbo for so long. Are you still
having this problem? It is most likely due to the software you are using,
and not a font issue, but I can help you solve it if I know what system and
software you are using (including versions).

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[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
First, to confirm, you are using the SBL Hebrew font, yes? I'm afraid I can't comment on what another font like Narkisim may or may not be doing.

How are you inputting the text? Does the problem occur in any other applications (e.g. Wordpad or NotePad) or only in Word? Does it occur for every instance of holam, or only in some situations?

Can you provide a screenshot showing the problem? If you can't upload one to this discussion (file attachment seems buggy), please email it to tiro[at]tiro[dot]com. Thanks.
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Gilbert,
Wait for Office 2007, and hope that Gates fixed it.
Andrew

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Posted by: John Hudson
         
Dear All,

Gilbert sent me a test document with some examples of the holem positioning problem. As far as I can tell this is a font problem, not an application issue. In the test document, the Hebrew text was specified as Times New Roman. This font does not contain any OpenType Layout intelligence for Hebrew mark positioning, so crude centering is used to position vowels below letters (this can be seen in the incorrect positioning relative to right-side letters like dalet and resh), and fails completely when it comes to the holem.

Microsoft does ship some Hebrew fonts that have OpenType Layout intelligence for Hebrew, e.g. the various Gutmann fonts which are available with some Office products such as proofing tools. But these fonts are tailored for modern Israeli usage, not Biblical Hebrew, and the typographic conventions they support do not correspond to Masoretic scribal conventions.

In order to correctly display Biblical Hebrew in Word, you need to use a font that includes OpenType Layout intelligence tailored to the scribal conventions. SBL Hebrew is designed specifically for Biblical Hebrew. Another option would be the SIL Ezra font.

I have put a PDF online at
http://www.tiro.com/John/Holem_positioning.pdf
which shows the different holem positioning with Times New Roman (incorrect), Guttman Hodes (acceptable, but following modern Israeli conventions) and SBL Hebrew (correct, following scribal conventions).
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
PS. Microsoft have done extensive updates to their core fonts for Windows Vista and Office 2007, so it is possible that OpenType Layout for Hebrew mark positioning has been added to Times New Roman. I will alert a colleague at MS Typography to this discussion, and perhaps he can comment on this. I suspect, however, that any such updates would again be targetting modern Israeli usage rather than Biblical Hebrew.
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: James18343
         
The [BibLit] identifier in the subject lines of these posts has been
coming and going. If the omission was inadvertent, here's a vote for
restoring it.
James
jernest@bakeracademic.com

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Gilbert and Matthew,
The sad part is that most people use Times New Roman English, which is a
nice font.  So when you switch to Hebrew, Word automaticallly selects Times
New Roman Hebrew, which is neither a nice font - SBL Hebrew is - nor a
reasonable font, since the vowel-marks are all goofed up, as John explained.
  Another way of looking at it is that there come times when you have to
change a section globally to Times-Roman due to a glitch in Word - e.g. when
copying and pasting from one document formatted one way to another formatted
differently.  You wanted to change just the English, but the Hebrew gets
changed to (since Word can't distinguish between Times Roman English and
Times-Roman Hebrew); and then your font is ugly, and your pointing is
screwed up.  It was easier with typewriters!?
Andrew Fincke

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[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: James18343
         
twuandy wrote:
You wanted to change just the English, but the Hebrew gets
changed to (since Word can't distinguish between Times Roman English and

Times-Roman Hebrew)

In MS Word, the [ - ] option in wildcard searching give you a way to
change the font only for characters within a target range of Unicode
characters. So with a little work (looking up the top and bottom
characters in Unicode range for the alphabet you're searching for),
you can change the font only for Greek, or only for Hebrew, or whatever.

--------------------
James Ernest
jernest@bakeracademic.com
--------------------

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: JudyRedman
         

I'd also be happy to have an identifier on the subject line. 
It means I can readily recognise them as non-spam.

 

Judy

From: James18343
  [mailto:jernest@bakeracademic.com]
Sent: Friday, 5 January 2007
  1:09 PM
To: SBL Fonts
Subject: Re: subject
  lines

	New Message on SBL Fonts

subject
    lines

Reply	Reply to Sender   Recommend Message 9 in                 Discussion
From: James18343 The [BibLit] identifier in the                 subject lines of these posts has been coming and going. If                 the omission was inadvertent, here's a vote for restoring it.                 James jernest@bakeracademic.com

View other groups in this
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[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
I'll look into this. The [BibLit] identifier to which James refers is actually on mail from a different list.

The MSN community is primarily designed as a web forum, and emails, for those requesting them, are automatically generated by MSN. I'll poke around in the manager tools to see if there is a way to add an identifier, but I'm not very hopeful.
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Dear James,
This is more than a little cryptic.  I looked up the Word help item and
found that by using wild cards you can specify Unicode numbers and - I
assume - ranges.  But I saw no place to specify font change.  Furthermore,
the unicode number must be specified so Unnnn with a hatchet - upside down
triangle in fronm of it.  I suppose what you would advised would be helpful
in changing a special character - one that has no keyboard correspondence -
to another; but I don;t see how it works changeing a range of characters
from one font to the other.
Andrew Fincke


James Ernest wrote:
In MS Word, the [ - ] option in wildcard searching give you a way to
>change the font only for characters within a target range of Unicode
>characters. So with a little work (looking up the top and bottom
>characters in Unicode range for the alphabet you're searching for),
>you can change the font only for Greek, or only for Hebrew, or whatever.
>
>--------------------
>James Ernest
>jernest@bakeracademic.com
>--------------------
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Posted by: twuandy
         
James,
What I'm trying to do is change - in a 340 page book - all the Narkisim
Hebrew, much of it pointed through the insertion of special characters, to
John's SBL font.  How do I do that?
Andrew Fincke


>From: "James18343"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: Holem Problem
>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 21:30:08 -0800
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>       Holem Problem
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>               twuandy wrote:
>You wanted to change just the English, but the Hebrew gets
>changed to (since Word can't distinguish between Times Roman English and
>
>Times-Roman Hebrew)
>
>In MS Word, the [ - ] option in wildcard searching give you a way to
>change the font only for characters within a target range of Unicode
>characters. So with a little work (looking up the top and bottom
>characters in Unicode range for the alphabet you're searching for),
>you can change the font only for Greek, or only for Hebrew, or whatever.
>
>--------------------
>James Ernest
>jernest@bakeracademic.com
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