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« Reply #15 on: 2007-02-17, 11:17:00 » |
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Posted by: twuandy Dear John, I know you're very busy. Please tell me how - in Open Office Writer - to enter "This is my text: any 'ohev otah. That was my text." any 'ohev otah is Hebrew for "I love you". It will be in Hebrew letters and will be read from right to left. I'm clear as far as the colon. After that I have no idea how to enter the Hebrew. Thanks, Andy >From: "John Hudson"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:07:19 -0800
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> MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
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> From:
> John Hudson
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> Andy, the Hebrew question is really off-topic for this
>thread, but...
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>I did a quick experiment pasting Hebrew text into OpenOffice Writer when I
>first installed it, just to see if the mark positioning was working (it
>seems to be), but had not done any other Hebrew testing with it. My head's
>full of Greek at the moment.
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>I just did a quick test of Hebrew input, and it seems to work fine and
>exactly the same as in MS Word: just select the Hebrew keyboard, set the
>correct font, and start typing.
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>According to the OpenOffice help files, all that the CTRL+SHIFT+D command
>does is shift to right-to-left directionality, it doesn't actually activate
>Hebrew input, which works the same way in OpenOffice as in Word: directly
>from the installed keyboard driver.
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>[Please note that the Word kerning issue discussed in this thread is
>specific to polytonic Greek. Hebrew kerning is implemented by the Hebrew
>shaping engine in Uniscribe using the OpenType GPOS kerning. There is no
>legacy format kern table in the Hebrew font.]
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« Reply #16 on: 1969-12-31, 19:00:00 » |
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Posted by: John Hudson
Andy, this worked for me.
With the EN keyboard selected, I just started typing
"This is my text:
then I switched the the HE keyboard, and continued typing
אני אוהב אוך
[I was using a font the includes both Latin and Hebrew characters; if the English text is in a font that does not include Hebrew characters, the application switches to a default font (Tahoma on my system)]
then I switched back to the EN keyboard and typed
. That was my text."
That's all there was too it. The over all text directionality of the paragraph was left-to-right, since we were beginning with English text, but I could have set it to be right-to-left using the ctrl+shift+D command or the right-to-left paragraph button in the toolbar.
The Hebrew characters will automatically be right-to-left, even though the surrounding text is left-to-right, because their Unicode character property directionality is RTL.
As far as I can tell, OpenOffice Writer behaves exactly the same as MS Word in this respect.
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« Reply #17 on: 2007-02-17, 17:04:00 » |
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Posted by: twuandy How do you switch to the HE keyboard? How do you enter points? Andy _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01 |
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« Reply #18 on: 2007-02-17, 22:31:00 » |
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Posted by: JudyRedman Andy, Do you have a Hebrew keyboard installed on your computer? If
you don't, typing more than a few characters of Hebrew will send you
crazy. You can download a Hebrew keyboard map from the SBL site http://www.sbl-site.org/Resources/Resources_BiblicalFonts.aspx -
click on the relevant link under the heading New SBL Hebrew
Font. Once you have unzipped it and installed you, you need to get your
operating system to recognise that you have it. Are you using
Windows? If so, I can give you some help in doing this, but I know nothing
about Macs. Judy |
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« Reply #19 on: 2007-02-18, 12:00:00 » |
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Posted by: JudyRedman PS - the download files contain manuals to help with installation
and use. Judy |
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« Reply #20 on: 2007-02-18, 12:45:00 » |
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Posted by: JudyRedman Sorry, I should read things more carefully. Andy, the SBL
files only work for Windows 2000 and XP. If you are using any other
operating system, perhaps others on this list can help you. Judy |
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« Reply #21 on: 2007-02-18, 01:14:00 » |
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Posted by: John Hudson
Andy, I'll contact you via email, and try to sort this out. I'd rather not fill the new Greek forum with a lot of messages about Hebrew.
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« Reply #22 on: 2007-02-18, 01:25:00 » |
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Posted by: EmpiricalHumanist
On 2/14/07, John Hudson wrote:
> I don't know how the OpenOffice product performs in other respects,
> but in this regard at least I have no hesitation in recommending it as
> an alternative to Word.
OpenOffice is my primary office suite; I use it daily on three
platforms: Linux, Mac and WindowsXP. I also use SBLHebrew heavily in
my daily work, and interact with others who use MS Office exclusively.
My experience is that SBLHebrew in OpenOffice works great on WindowsXP
and Linux platforms, athough Linux has been behind in the rendering of
combining characters. On the Mac, the rendering of Hebrew by NeoOffice
(the Mac port of OpenOffice) is awful. In general, the Mac doesn't
handle combining characters well at all. I use Mellel when I need to
do Hebrew, and is the only practical solution for Hebrew
wordprocessing, in my opinion.
My only real complaint isn't a font issue: it's very difficult to edit
Hebrew combining forms in Word, OpenOffice or Mellel, as has been
noted on this list before.
Kirk
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« Reply #23 on: 2007-02-18, 05:47:00 » |
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Posted by: John Hudson
I've just installed MS Office 2007, and report that, as I suspected, there is no improvement in kerning support.
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« Reply #24 on: 2007-02-21, 10:05:00 » |
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Posted by: twuandy Got you, John (and Judy). Word's Times New Roman font is a catchall font that has English, Hebrew, Greek, Coptic(?) and who knows what else - but only bits, nothing complete. When the rabbi said to Gates, "But what about cholem without vav?" he said, "Sorry, the spots are all full. Go see John at Tiro!" Kerning is something beyond the capabilities of the people in Seattle. Andrew >From: "John Hudson"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:25:09 -0800
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> I've just installed MS Office 2007, and report that, as I
>suspected, there is no improvement in kerning support.
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« Reply #25 on: 2007-03-01, 03:25:00 » |
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Posted by: twuandy That is, each letter followed by a cholem is a different glyph, and - since there are 22 Hebrew letters - there are 22 glyphs for consonant+cholem. The people in Seattle are using those spots for something else, and kerning is out of the question. Andrew >From: "John Hudson"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: MS Word (2003) polytonic kerning issue
>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:25:09 -0800
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> I've just installed MS Office 2007, and report that, as I
>suspected, there is no improvement in kerning support.
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« Reply #26 on: 2007-03-02, 01:40:00 » |
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Posted by: John Hudson
Some hopeful news regarding the MS Word polytonic Greek kerning problem. After corresponding with some managers and programmers at Microsoft about this issue, I received confirmation from them today that they have confirmed and identified the problem and are working to figure out when they can fix it and make an update available.
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« Reply #28 on: 2007-03-06, 05:02:00 » |
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Posted by: John Hudson
What about Hebrew kerning? The only thing that doesn't work as I would hope is that kerning for common punctuation characters like comma and period that are used in modern Hebrew is not being applied in Word. But all the other kerning in the SBL Hebrew font is working fine. If it isn't working in another font, that's the font's fault not Word's.
Kerning for Hebrew in Word is handled by the Uniscribe script processor, which applies OpenType GPOS kerning for Hebrew.
The tricky aspect of Hebrew kerning, which I am working on refining in the v2.0 release of the SBL Hebrew font, is contextually adjusting the spacing when adjacent letters have marks below them. For narrow letters, especially, it is necessary to increase the spacing slightly to avoid the marks colliding. This is very fiddly, and I wasn't happy with the rather coarse way this was addressed in the current shipping versions of SBL Hebrew, so I've devised a new approach, which is much more complicated but provides better results. I've tested this approach in Word, other Uniscribe apps, OpenOffice.org, and Adobe InDesign ME; some of our colleagues have tested it in Mellel for me.
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