[SBL Hebrew] problem with aleph + masora dot

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Pim_12
         
Dear list,
I have a problem with the combination of aleph + masora dot.
First the system info:
- MS Office Word 2003 (11.5604.5606);
- WinXP Professional (5.1.2600 Service Pack 1 Build 2600);
- (could not find out the version of Uniscribe: how do I do that?).

Problem: masora dot (U+0307) is not positioned centered over aleph, but to the left.
See attached picture (I hope it gets through).

Could this be a bug, or do I need to update a bit of software?  Or am I just doing something wrong?

Background: for the time being I should like to use this dot (U+0307), and masora circle (U+05AF), in transcriptions of Dead Sea Scrolls texts.  These dots and circles are essential characters in DSS texts.  From an encoding point of view my choices are not ideal, I know.  Any comments will be gratefully received.

With best wishes to all,

Pim Rietbroek
Editor, Religion
Brill Academic Publishers
P.O. Box 9000
2300 PA Leiden
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         

The sequence should render fine in your setup. I just tested it in Word 2003 on my machine.

 

Office uses its own version of Uniscribe, which is kept in the

...Program FilesCommon FilesMicrosoft SharedOFFICE11

directory. The version that ships with Office 2003 is the most uptodate public release, and this should work really well with SBL Hebrew.

 

What input method are you using?

 

Are you sure you have the latest version of the SBL Hebrew font (version 1.06)? There was a change in the recommended encoding of the Masora dot from previous versions of the font, due to undertainty over the intended Unicode encoding for the upper punctum extraordinarium.

 

Your attached picture did not come through to the web forum. Feel free to send it to me directly via e-mail: it may help me troubleshoot your problem.

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Peter Kirk
         
On 30/03/2004 13:42, SBL Fonts wrote:
>
>    ...
>
>     Problem: masora dot (U+0307) is not positioned centered over aleph,
>     but to the left.
>     See attached picture (I hope it gets through).

I wonder if it would be more suitable for the DSS texts to use not
U+0307 but U+05C4. This latter is the upper dot used in a few places in
the biblical text.


--
Peter Kirk
peter@qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Ken Penner
         
Peter's suggestion to use U+05C4 to mark uncertain characters in the
DSS looks fine with other fonts (Ezra SIL, Cardo, etc.) but the dot in
SBL Hebrew is placed too high for this purpose; we need the dot above
and the circle above to display in the same position.

Ken Penner
McMaster/DSS

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
I just tested the alef with both dots on my landlord's machine (XP with Word
2002).  The 03O7 appears as Pim said - to the left like a cholem.  05c4
didn't appear on the screen, so I didn't try a printout.
TWUandy

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[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Update from TWUandy:  I got the font installed on my machine with XP Pro and
Word 2003, and - at least on the screen - the dot is being positioned
correctly over the alef.  Note, Pim, you have to type the dot before the
succeeding vowel, i.e. in asher with dubious alef you have to type alef,
dot, patach etc. in that order.
Twuandy

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[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         

Peter, as discussed at length on the Unicode Hebrew list, U+05C4 is intended specifically for encoding the upper punctum extraordiarium, which is how it is used in the SBL Hebrew font.

 

The dot used in masora notes needs to be smaller and lower than the punctum, so we are currently recommending U+0307, in the absence of a specific Hebrew 'masora dot' combining mark. Note that U+0307 should also be use for indicating Hebrew letters used as numbers, as u+0308 can be used to get the double dots to indicate thousands.

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         

Note, Pim, you have to type the dot before the succeeding vowel, i.e. in asher with dubious alef you have to type alef, dot, patach etc. in that order.

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Pim_12
         
Hello John,
The input method was the SIL Hebrew keyboard bundled with the font and the docs.
I am pretty sure I am using the latest distribution published on the SBL site (I think the bundle is has the version number 1.0.7, not 1.0.6), but I'll check when I am back in the office. Maybe get a fresh copy and install the font from there.
As to the picture: a file called "SBL_Hebrew_problem.bmp" is in the pictures area of the SBL fonts forum.
I'll send you a separate msg anyway.

Best,

Pim
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Pim_12
         
TWUandy wrote:
> Note, Pim, you have to type the dot before the
> succeeding vowel, i.e. in asher with dubious alef
> you have to type alef, dot, patach etc. in that order.

Thanks. But the word in question has no vowel marks at all. I hope you can see the picture I have uploaded in the SBL fonts pictures area called "SBL_Hebrew_problem.bmp".
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Pim_12
         
Ken Penner wrote:
> Peter's suggestion to use U+05C4 to mark uncertain
> characters in the DSS looks fine with other fonts
> (Ezra SIL, Cardo, etc.) but the dot in SBL Hebrew is
> placed too high for this purpose; we need the dot
> above and the circle above to display in the same
> position.

About the position of both dot and circle in DSS texts, I agree. These _must_ be in the same position on the vertical axis.

John Hudson wrote:
> The dot used in masora notes needs to be smaller
> and lower than the punctum, so we are currently
> recommending U+0307, in the absence of a specific
> Hebrew 'masora dot' combining mark.

and

> Note that U+0307 should also be use for indicating
> Hebrew letters used as numbers, as u+0308 can be
> used to get the double dots to indicate thousands.

The specifics of DSS Hebrew marks (in this case, a dot over a letter, and a circle over a letter) pose some interesting questions on encoding. Do we semantically "recycle" code points such as U+0307, i.e. by using it for the masora dot AND for the numeral indicator AND for a DSS legibility indicator, or do we fix the semantics, as in the case of the "masora circle," and propose more Unicode code points to differentiate between characters having distinct meanings? The symbolic nature of characters and glyphs in the Unicode Standard would confer validity on both points of view, I think.

FWIW, my own thoughts: there is a hierarchy in the Hebrew script (and probably in all scripts): some characters are more "central" than others. How "central" or "peripheral" a character is largely depends on tradition and on the importance given to it at a specific time. "Central" characters should be given an encoding of their own, while "peripheral" characters may be graphically identical with others whose _meaning_ is diverse. For the DSS diacritics, in this view, U+0307 will be a perfectly adequate code point.

This brings up the question of the use of U+05AF: its meaning has been fixed in the Unicode Standard as "hebrew mark masora circle"--that definitely ties a specific meaning to this code point, differing (AFAIK) from the meaning of the circle-above-a-letter in DSS transcriptions. If the above reasoning were rigorously applied, the character U+030A "combining ring above" should be _added_ to the SBL Hebrew font in order to avoid a semantic clash with U+05AF "hebrew mark masora circle"; addition of U+030A to the SBL Hebrew font would also probably necessitate some additions to the Uniscribe mechanism and/or OTL tables.

HTH,

Pim
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Pim
I got home and tried the font again, this time even printing it out.  
There's no problem in getting the dot centered over the alef when you use
Word 2003 in XP Office.  The problem you described - and I don't know where
your picture is - is real.  I saw it on the screen and in print when I tried
to code the dot over alef on my landlord's computer running Word 2002 in XP
Home.
TWUAndy

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[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Pim_12
         
Thanks, TWUAndy, and indeed all of you, for your comments. The problem turns out not to be the SBL Hebrew font. I had overlooked the fact that the alef (which is in the middle of a word) had somehow changed fonts, and that this had caused the misalignment of the masora dot. When I reapplied the SBL Hebrew font to the alef, the masora dot was positioned perfectly.

How this sudden and unwished-for font change can occur in the middle of a word still begs an explanation; it has occurred again, with lamed this time, in a different document I made. It may have to do with repositioning the insertion point with the mouse after keying the Hebrew text in order to add the masora dot at a specific point in the word.

I'll investigate the matter when I am back in the office and report back on the scenario(s) which (may) precipitate this behavior.

Best,

Pim
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Pim,
For two days you've been talking about "getting back to the office".  When
you will be there?
TWUAndy

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[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Peter Kirk
         
On 01/04/2004 17:33, SBL Fonts wrote:
>
...
>
>     From: Pim_12
>    
>
>     Ken Penner wrote:
>      > Peter's suggestion to use U+05C4 to mark uncertain
>      > characters in the DSS looks fine with other fonts
>      > (Ezra SIL, Cardo, etc.) but the dot in SBL Hebrew is
>      > placed too high for this purpose; we need the dot
>      > above and the circle above to display in the same
>      > position.
>
>     About the position of both dot and circle in DSS texts, I agree.
>     These _must_ be in the same position on the vertical axis.

There is another issue here. If the masora circle U+05AF is lower than
the upper dot U+05C4, is that actually correct? The masora circle is
intended primarily for the circle found in fully pointed biblical texts.
In such texts it needs to be printed in a row above the vowel points and
accents, so perhaps at the same height as the upper dot. I suppose I am
saying that these two are essentially the same kind of mark and so
should be positioned similarly.

I am actually surprised that this has not been done in SBL Hebrew.
Perhaps the reason is the uncertainty of how the masora circle should
actually be coded. It really a diacritic which applies to the whole word
and should be centred above the whole word, but Unicode has no such concept.

...
>
>     This brings up the question of the use of U+05AF: its meaning has
>     been fixed in the Unicode Standard as "hebrew mark masora
>     circle"--that definitely ties a specific meaning to this code point,
>     differing (AFAIK) from the meaning of the circle-above-a-letter in
>     DSS transcriptions. If the above reasoning were rigorously applied,
>     the character U+030A "combining ring above" should be _added_ to the
>     SBL Hebrew font in order to avoid a semantic clash with U+05AF
>     "hebrew mark masora circle"; addition of U+030A to the SBL Hebrew
>     font would also probably necessitate some additions to the Uniscribe
>     mechanism and/or OTL tables.

I tend to agree with you. U+030A should be positioned at the same height
as U+0307, and U+05AF at the same height as U+05C4. The latter pair
should be used for fully pointed biblical texts. U+05C4 should also be
used to represent otherwise unpointed biblical texts e.g. synagogue
scrolls in which this is the only point used. But probably U+0307 and
U+030A should be used for DSS.

I think that the Unicode Technical Committee would be reluctant to
encode yet another set of Hebrew diacritical marks. They would certainly
need good evidence to show that the existing ones are inadequate.


--
Peter Kirk
peter@qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

         

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