problem with holam (resend)

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Prof_Bob_Stallman
         

(my first attempt at posting may not have gone through)

--------------------------------------------------------

I've just installed SBL Hebrew on my new notebook computer running Windows XP Professional 2002 (Service Pack 2) and Word 2003 (11.6113.5703).

 

So far, so good, except that when I type any consonant (except waw) and then a holam, the holam displays too far to the left, as if it is a regular character (i.e., there is only white space beneath it). Typing a waw then holam yields a proper "holam-waw" long vowel.

 

I have tried using a lower-case o and an upper-case O. Both yield the same improper result. In case it helps, the words I am trying to type are the Hebrew equivalents of "and he said" (wayyo'mer) and "all" (kol, spelled defectively).

 

Perhaps somebody else has encountered this problem and has a solution. I'd love to hear it.

 

thanks,

 

Bob

 

 

*********************************************

 Bob Stallman, Ph.D.
 Professor of Bible & Hebrew
 Northwest University
 Kirkland, WA  98083   (425) 889-5347     bob.stallman@northwestu.edu
 http://www.wts.edu/hebrew/">http://eagle.ncag.edu/academic/ministry/faculty/bstallman/
*********************************************

 

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Dear Bob,
One of my great gripes with Word 2003 is their Times-Roman Hebrew font that
has a bug at the cholem- namely it positions it just like you described.  
That forces me to use Narkisim, which doesn't have the defect.   The problem
is that Word automatically puts me in Times-Roman when I switch from English
inputting (which is in Times-Roman) to Hebrew inputting.  Therefore I must
manually select Narkisim or periodically hit CTRL-A (select all) and
globally specify Narkisim.  I've been dealing with this problem for years,
and it sounds like your problem is the same, or traces to the same bug.  But
wait!  Just this moment a solution occurred to me.  Maybe I (we) need to use
an English font other than Times-Roman.  Then Word won't switch me (us)
automatically to the defective Times-Roman Hebrew font when we switch
inputting language.  It's amazing to me that Microsoft, which deals with all
languages and has a massive business in Israel, has such a fundamental bug
as incorrect cholem in their standard font - Times-Roman.
Andy

>From: "Prof_Bob_Stallman"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: problem with holam (resend)
>Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 09:55:46 -0800
>


         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Prof_Bob_Stallman
         

Thank you, Andy, for that insight. Switching to Narkisim does solve the problem, though I prefer the look of SBLHebrew in the Times New Roman style.

 

Without testing all of the fonts that I have installed, it seems that the look of SBLHebrew only changes when I format the text as Times New Roman, Arial , or Narkisim.

 

Perhaps somebody else has had success with other font types. Suggestions?

 

On a related note, how can a person set things up so that whenever the Hebrew keyboard is selected, the input is also set to Narkisim rather than Times New Roman?

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Aaron0327
         

Dear Prof. Stallman,

 

I have had the problem that you describe with most of the fonts that come installed with Word.  David is another which allows holem without waw.  However, you will likely have problems with the raised qamats and/or shewa in the final kaf with both Narkissim and David.

 

The SBL Hebrew font fixed both problems for me.  That is, it correctly places both the holem (with or without a waw) and the vowel of a final kaf.

 

The fact that you seem to be having trouble with the SBL font makes me wonder if it  is correctly installed on your computer (the fact that Word lists it as one of your fonts does not necessarily mean that it is correctly installed), because you should not be experiencing the problem that you are experiencing with SBL Hebrew.

 

Regarding your final question, namely how you can automatically go into Hebrew when you press ALT+SHIFT to change languages:  you need to modify the NORMAL style in word.  Depending on which version of Word you have, you go to STYLES AND FORMATTING in the FORMAT menu and modify NORMAL.  Keep the LATIN font Times New Roman, but change the COMPLEX font to SBL Hebrew.  This should now make SBL Hebrew your default Hebrew font.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Sincerely,

Aaron

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Dear Aaron,
The probelm with raised shewa and raised qamets is solved by inserting final
vocalized kof as a symbol from the symbol charts.  The reason I don't switch
to SBL is that I'm used to entering the vowels using keyboard shortcuts from
these charts.  I work with Dead Sea Scrolls, so I don't need cantillation.  
The problem is 1) the said defect with Times New Roman and 2) the fact that
I have three input keyboards: English, Syriac and Hebrew.  That means I have
2, not one, complex fonts; and so I have to cycle through the Syriac
keyboard to go from Hebrew to English.  When I reselect Hebrew Word throws
me right back to the Hebrew Times-Roman instead of to Narkisim.  I just
tried your solution with Normal in the Fonts and Styles, and it didn't work.
  Please suggest a solution, or convince me that switching to SBL, learning
the new keystrokes for the vowels, will solve everything.  Meantime, maybe
switching off the Syriac keyboard, which I use seldom, will help Word
remember where to go when I select Hebrew input.  Or recoding my English
into BibleWorks Bweeti font, which resembles Times-Roman but has a different
name, will relieve Microsoft of the Times-Roman hangup.  It reminds me of my
mother, who was always confusing the names of her five sons.
Andy

>From: "Aaron0327"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: problem with holam (resend)
>Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:41:28 -0800
>


         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Prof_Bob_Stallman
         

Dear Aaron,

 

You wrote:

The fact that you seem to be having trouble with the SBL font makes me wonder if it  is correctly installed on your computer (the fact that Word lists it as one of your fonts does not necessarily mean that it is correctly installed), because you should not be experiencing the problem that you are experiencing with SBL Hebrew.

 

Regarding your final question, namely how you can automatically go into Hebrew when you press ALT+SHIFT to change languages:  you need to modify the NORMAL style in word.  Depending on which version of Word you have, you go to STYLES AND FORMATTING in the FORMAT menu and modify NORMAL.  Keep the LATIN font Times New Roman, but change the COMPLEX font to SBL Hebrew.  This should now make SBL Hebrew your default Hebrew font.

 

I do believe I have installed everything correctly, and have double-checked this.

I did, however take your advice and modified the NORMAL style, setting the complex font to SBL Hebrew. This solves my problem. The word wayyomer has a holam in the right place, and the shewa and qamets in the final kaph are also positioned correctly. When I switch back and forth between keyboards, the HE keyboard now automatically selects "SBL Hebrew" in the font toolbar. Before, it used to read "Times New Roman" (even though Hebrew characters were produced with keystrokes) and therein lay the problem.

 

Thanks so much (In hindsight, it looks all too simple). I do appreciate your input and help.

 

Bob

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
Glad to hear that you found the solution, Bib, and that this user community is proving so helpful.

I'm in the midst of testing the next version of the font, which includes a number of improvements (e.g. furtive patah support) and some significant changes (more reliable holam male vs. vav haluma distinction). Unfortunately, because some of the changes involve new characters that are not yet formally encoded in the Unicode Standard, we need to release the font with some heavy caveats. More details soon.
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Aaron0327
         

Dear Andy,

 

I used to use the method that you describe (inserting the necessary final kaf from the symbol chart), but ran into problems when I needed to do presentations with PowerPoint, which, if I recall correctly, treated the character in question as a left-to-right, rather than right-to-left character (which was a problem if the Hebrew word in question occurred in a left-to-right (i.e. English) sentence).  That was in Office XP.  Now I have Office 2003, and as I quickly test it as I write this, it seems to have the same problem.  But if you don't use PowerPoint (or if your version doesn't have the same problem as mine), then it might not be worth it.  I also like David and Narkisim, though I think one of the most beautiful of the Word fonts is Monotype Hadassa.  A pity that it has no kaf sofit with vowel available as a symbol and makes the holem dot appear too far to the right.  Another difficulty (though perhaps not an important one) of having to insert the final kaf character is the Word's spellchecker will not recognize the word.

 

As for changing the normal style:  at one time or another I have also had more than two languages, including other complex scripts, active.  But I found it too much of a hassle to hit ALT+SHIFT three or more times every time I wanted to shift languages, so now I just have English and Hebrew, which are the two I use the most (by far).  I don't know if it would be as convenient for you.  In any case, however, you should not have to learn new keystrokes for Hebrew vowels with SBLHebrew.  As long as you specify use of the normal Hebrew Keyboard (rather than Tiro or SIL), you can use the normal CAPS LOCK+SHIFT+numbers for the vowels.  Only the accent marks, etc. require learning the new keystrokes.  Regarding BibleWorks:  I have no experience with trying to recode, etc., though I am familiar with the unsatisfactory results of trying to paste BibleWorks Hebrew into Word.  I just keep hoping and waiting for them to switch to unicode.

 

Aaron

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: Aaron0327
         

Dear Prof. Stallman,

 

I'm glad that it worked out, though surprised at how.  Oh well.

 

Aaron

         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Dear Aaron (and Bob),
Thanks for the insights, which reflect my own experience and bitterness
about the silly Times-Roman defect.  I followed everything except
"As long as you specify use of the normal Hebrew Keyboard (rather than Tiro
or SIL), you can use the normal CAPS LOCK+SHIFT+numbers for the vowels."
You're saying, I guess, download SBL Hebrew font but not the keyboards and
use the font with the Israeli Hebrew keyboard that comes with Word.  Then I
can key in vowels as I do now: ALT+1 = Qametx, ALT+2 = Patach, ALT+3 =
Chirek, etc.  I just tried the final kofs from the symbol tables in Power
Point, and they worked fine.  What didn't work was the cholem without vav.  
I tried lamed + cholem with four different Hebrew overdots, and in all cases
the kerning was as Bob described - too much space.  At least on the screen,
I didn't print out.
Andy

>From: "Aaron0327"
>Reply-To: "SBL Fonts"
>To: "SBL Fonts"
>Subject: Re: problem with holam (resend)
>Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 03:50:55 -0800
>


         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: John Hudson
         
SBL Hebrew should be usable with any Hebrew keyboard driver that inputs correct Unicode Hebreww characters (I''ve seen some 'Hebrew' keyboards that are designed to work with hacked 8-bit fonts in which Hebrew letters are mapped to ASCII codepoints; these won't work with SBL Hebrew), so the standard Windows Hebrew driver should work fine. Of course, that keyboard layout does not include te'amim support., but you can set up more than one Hebrew keyboard, and can switch between the regular one and e.g. the Tiro keyboard when you need to work with te'amim.

If you are interested in developing your own Hebrew keyboard layouts and drivers (and perhaps making them available to the community?) you can use Microsoft's free Keyboard Layout Creator, available here: http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx
         

[ArchivePoster]

Posted by: twuandy
         
Dear Aaron,
After my appeal to Mike Bushell of BibleWorks at the SBL convention in
Washington in November, BibleWorks 7 plus Web updates now allows pasting of
Hebrew text from the Browse window into a Word document.  The pasted text
can be with or without cantillation, with or without vowels.  It comes in
wrapped corrrectly, but you have to delete an excessive CR at the end.  
Sometimes you also have to change the font and size of the pasted text. (So
is it on my desktop, while on the laptop it comes in in Narkisim 12 point,
perfect.)  If you install Bible Works 7, check the following boxes in Export
Options:
Send RTF
Remove CRLFs
Keep Hebrew wrap
Export superscripts
Filter RTF
Remove Space dots
Those designations are my abbreviations, not literal citation of the
BibleWorks text.  Not all of them may be necessary, but that combination
works for me.  One more thing you have to do is to go to OPTIONS > FONTS and
check the box "Export from Browse window in Unicode".  The option is to keep
using DageshIV Pro, but there you have to find the desired text (harder than
in Bible Works), paste it to a blank document, save the new document as an
RTF file, reselect the text and paste it to the Word document.
Andrew

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