FontLab Forum
2012-05-16, 12:46:15 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Welcome to the FontLab forum, read how to use it! Update: Archives from old MSN forums are now available on our forum.
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Downloads Tags Login Register  
Del.icio.us Digg FURL FaceBook Stumble Upon Reddit SlashDot

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: FontLab OSX universal binary  (Read 1399 times)
ArchivePoster
Guest
« on: 2006-11-09, 12:28:00 »

Posted by: LLtype
         
Hello everybody,
is there any release timeframe for UB version?

thanks
         
Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #1 on: 2006-11-09, 12:34:00 »

Posted by: Adam Twardoch
         
Not at this time.

A.
         
Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #2 on: 2006-11-09, 12:46:00 »

Posted by: LLtype
         
Thanks for your prompt reply, Adam. I am a Fontlab studio customer using OS X, it sound sad that you are not thinking to release it optimised for Intel. I sincerely hope you'll change your mind soon.

All the best
         
Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #3 on: 2006-11-09, 12:57:00 »

Posted by: Adam Twardoch
         
It's not a matter of "not thinking", it's a matter of development effort and cost. Apple makes the customers think that it's completely painless to port Mac OS X software to Intel, but the reality is different, especially if the move would have to be combined with a move from Metroworks (our current development environment) to XCode (Apple's own development environment, the only one that currently supports universal binaries).

The porting effort may be relatively simple for small software projects but large and complex applications present a considerable barrier.

A.
         
« Last Edit: 2009-11-19, 04:40:42 by Alex Petrov (FontLab) » Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #4 on: 2006-11-09, 15:53:00 »

Posted by: Cyril
         
> Thanks for your prompt reply, Adam. I am a Fontlab studio
> customer using OS X, it sound sad that you are not thinking to
> release it optimised for Intel. I sincerely hope you'll change your
> mind soon.

we'll be happy to consider any valuable argument why FontLab should be converted in universal binary form right now. but please keep in mind that arguments like "it should be UB cause Apple told so" are not arguments in fact. does Intel optimized mean FL will work faster and smoother on IntelMacs? Rosetta emulated FL works fast and stable on IntelMacs. somtimes it's not necessary to follow modern fashion blindy.

best regards,
C.

--
Cyril Murzin
Chief of System Design, Macintosh

FontLab Ltd.
http://www.fontlab.com

         
« Last Edit: 2009-11-19, 04:39:21 by Alex Petrov (FontLab) » Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #5 on: 2006-11-09, 16:03:00 »

Posted by: Adam Twardoch
         
I agree with Cyril that we have not so far found any prompting reasons to deliver a universal binary other than having a "universal binary" logo on it. It is true that FontLab Studio 5 works very well on Intel-based Macs. Since the duo core Intel processors are faster than theold PowerPCs, FLS5 running under Rosetta is at least as fast as on previous machines.

FontLab Studio is not Photoshop or InDesign where any single additional CPU tick that you can squeeze out of your computer counts. Please keep in mind that maintaining universal code *is* more work than maintaining code for a single CPU -- no matter how much help Apple’s XCode IDE offers.

As with any modestly-sized development company, we have limited resources. We’trying to allocate these resources as well as possible to deliver the products with best possible functionality and stability for our users. Porting Fontographer from Classic to Mac OS X was important because otherwise, people would simply not be able to work with the software. Whether we port FontLab Studio 5 from Metroworks to XCode and binary is a different question. If the software works well in the current shape, we’ll live without the "universal binary" logo. However, should it turn out that there are problems with running FLS5 on Intel Macs, we will of course consider the move.

Regards,
Adam Twardoch
Fontlab Ltd.

         
Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #6 on: 2006-11-09, 17:07:00 »

Posted by: LLtype
         
Adam and Cyril,
thanks for your accurate replies. My poor english probably made my words sound a little rude, but it wasn't my intention. Believe me I am no fashion victim, but having recently bought a new macbook I was checking all my apps, the curiosity of asking for an information about FL future direction came spontaneously. I know of the difficulties in porting osx apps on intel, Adobe's John Nack made a great article on the subject:

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2006/10/why_no_powerpc.html

I also understand that apple moves are sometimes very hard to follow for developers, not talking of their small market share etc. If I liked windows I would probably use a pc, but sadly I can't stand at all the problems windows have. Thanks again.

all the best.
         
Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #7 on: 2006-11-09, 17:33:00 »

Posted by: Adam Twardoch
         
Thanks for the link to John Nack’s article. The writeup of his colleague Hart Shafer is also a good one:

http://blogs.adobe.com/hartshafer/2006/10/soundbooth_and.html

Of course FontLab Studio 5 exists in Intel code, because we do have a Windows version, and that’s the version where the core development is being done. In the past years, we have developed our own streamlined process to port the code to PowerPC-based Mac. To switch to universal binary (and from Metroworks to XCode), we would probably have to abandon that process and do it differently.

As with Adobe Soundbooth -- if we were starting FontLab Studio for Mac right now, we would go a different path. Perhaps we would also make it Intel-only, perhaps not. However, in contrast to people who do audio or photo editing, type designers don’t switch their hardware so often. Font editors usually consume modest hardware resources so it would be unwise for us to abandon PowerPC support and only switch to Intel Mac. This means that we need to support PowerPC for quite some time, and this again means that in the next future, we will stick to our current way of building software -- simply because it runs very well under Rosetta on Intel Macs.

Adobe’s Hart Shafer writes:

"A different chip architecture means a different test bed, which in turn means a lot of additional testing time. Every aspect of the application has to be re-verified--all that Intel-specific code we would have re-written for PPC would have inevitably introduced new bugs and testers are rightfully distrustful of the idea of "oh, don't worry, the software will work the same on both chips." Engineers can write all the code in the world, but without a good QA team running through all of it you probably wouldn't want to buy what they produce..."

Just like Adobe (in case of Soundbooth), we think that under the current circumstances, it is wise to produce only one "series" of Mac code. They chose to only maintain the Intel Mac build, we will, for the time being, only maintain the PowerPC build -- and rely on Apple’s Rosetta to do the Intel translation on the fly.

This does not mean that we won’t test on both PowerPC Macs and Intel Macs, but at least we don’t have to develop on both. Because, as Shafer writes, developing universal Mac code is more than just checking the "Make universal" checkbox.

Altogether, I welcome Apple’s move from PowerPC to Intel, and I think in the long run, it will help both the hardware industry and the software makers. But right now, Apple made it easy for themselves by turning on a publicity machine aimed at end-users that suggested "It’s so easy for software vendors to make universal apps, you just tick the checkbox". That’s nice and I kind of understand why they did it, but it ended up in both Apple and the end-users putting a lot of pressure on software vendors. To some extent, I think it was a little unfair from Apple towards software vendors. The posts on the Adobe blogs kind of confirm that -- it seems that even a large company such as Adobe needs to "defend themselves" now. It is similar with Fontlab Ltd.

I know that it wasn’t your intention, LLtype, to have this kind of effect, and I’m glad that you understand our points. The really good news from our side is that, really, we can say that FontLab software seems to work really well on Intel Macs even though it’s not "universal".

Best,
Adam

         
Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #8 on: 2006-11-09, 18:21:00 »

Posted by: Cyril
         
> Of course FontLab Studio 5 exists in Intel code, because we do
> have a Windows version, and that‚s the version where the core
> development is being done. In the past years, we have developed
> our own streamlined process to port the code to PowerPC-based
> Mac. To switch to universal binary (and from Metroworks to
> XCode), we would probably have to abandon that process and do it
> differently.

fortunately, Adobe's case is absolutely different. programming solutions for the signal processing (sound in this case) are more hardware dependant than just plain user interface.

for us the migration from Metrowerks tools to Apple ones is not the primary problem. the problem is in the radical changing of workflow and in Apple tools which usability is still poor. and they don't care, becuase the lack of competitors since Metrowerks left Mac business.

> Altogether, I welcome Apple‚s move from PowerPC to Intel, and I
> think in the long run, it will help both the

I have different view on it. I hate Apple for no respect to developers. in last few years Apple shocked developers with introducing of new technologies. for example THREE new CPUs (besides the movement m68k -> PPC) - PPC -> PPC64 -> Intel -> Intel64. of course not all developers felt these jumps hard, but tendency is nasty.

best regards,
C.

--
Cyril Murzin
Chief of System Design, Macintosh

FontLab Ltd.
http://www.fontlab.com

         
Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #9 on: 2006-11-26, 09:43:00 »

Posted by: amnony
         
Adam, Cyril,

A bit OT, but is there any timeframe yet for the release of AsiaFont Studio 5 (on Mac)?

BTW, I agree with your move not to hurry in moving to UB for Macintels. Professionals anyway don't change their tools so often, especially with PPC G5 macs; as long as they run... I just think there is no need to hate Apple; it is only a computer company trying to survive in a capitalistic environment (and succeeding in doing so), and it *does* provide the best environment and OS around.

I hope you don't stop developing for this platform and thank you for your excelent quality software.

Amnon.
         
Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #10 on: 2006-12-02, 15:23:00 »

Posted by: erik_van_blokland
         


So why is no one here upset about Metrowerks leaving their developers stuck? Seems to me that's where FontLab's problem is.

So apart from saying "it works great in Rosetta" there is no plan to continue support on OS X?
         
Logged
ArchivePoster
Guest
« Reply #11 on: 2006-12-05, 12:22:00 »

Posted by: Adam Twardoch
         
Erik,

my own hope is that Apple will introduce a new set of tools and technologies for Mac OS 10.5 which will possibly let us make a yet closer move to a valid solution. On the other hand, perhaps they will improve Rosetta.

I don't principally see a problem of Rosetta, just like I don't see a problem of programmers using Carbon rather than the new APIs. As long as it works, it really doesn't matter. Obviously, Rosetta currently does not work 100% well, and that is the problem.

We'll keep watching out for how things develop but will not jump overboard.

A.

         
Logged
Tags:
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!